User talk:DerekWinters

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WT:HI TR[edit]

I had to correct the transliteration of your Hindi entries according to the link above. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the trouble, I will try and do them properly from now on. Thanks for doing so though. DerekWinters (talk) 17:23, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
Please also see WT:TE TR, etc. Thanks —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:26, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


Derek, when you add a new L-2 entry, make sure you put a line between the entries with four hyphens (----). Compare what I did. Thank you for reading. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Good point, thanks for letting me know. DerekWinters (talk) 00:57, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


Did you intend to move all four languages to प्रकाशाणु? It’s fine if that is correct, but it’s unusual to move more than one language. —Stephen (Talk) 08:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

It most definitely is correct because each of the languages shares the same root, and I am fluent in 2 (Hindi and Marathi) and familiar in the other 2. However, in recent years, the true word has been forgotten by the majority of the public, favoring the usage of the English word. However, earlier works, and my professor of physics, used this word. DerekWinters (talk) 16:06, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Derived terms in JA entries[edit]

Heya, I see you've added a number of ====Derived terms==== sections to JA entries; thank you for that.

A couple minor points:

  • Make sure that the ====Derived terms==== header comes at the end of the relevant POS or etymology section. Over on the entry, you added it before the POS header ([1]), but then I also see on the entry that you added it in the correct place.  :)
  • The {{l}} template doesn't need the sc parameter for JA. Compare:
    • (ひ, hi) -- using {{l|ja|日|tr=ひ, ''hi''}}
    • (ひ, hi) -- using {{l|ja|sc=Jpan|日|tr=ひ, ''hi''}}
Identical results, at least on my machine with FF 18 running on fully-patched Win 7.

Otherwise, looking good! Thank you for expanding the entries!

Cheers, -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you and I shall be sure to place the entries in the correct location, the easier way now :). DerekWinters (talk) 22:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

photon and hydrogen in Sanskrit[edit]

Hi! Regarding the entries such as उदजन(udajana) and प्रकाशाणु(prakāśāṇu) - we can only add words that are actually attested in the written corpus, not made-up words that nobody uses/has used. Modern words coined/borrowed into extinct/ancient languages through some kind of "revival" efforts can only be added if there is evidence for them. E.g. we already have some modern Latin terms that are can be backed by quotations from Vatican publications. So unless there is actual attestation for these Sanskrit terms, they should be removed. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I understand. In all Indic languages, these words are used (with slight alterations in two or three) and so I assumed that, since they derived from Sanskrit, I should simply add them under Sanskrit too. And I doubt I'll be able to find any scientific articles written in Sanskrit, as they are primarily done in Hindi or English in India. DerekWinters (talk) 03:46, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Hungarian words containing tan (science)[edit]

Hi, the Hungarian words containing tan (science) are compound words (tan is not a suffix). What was your source? Can you please go back and correct all of them? Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 19:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I corrected all of them and deleted the category. --Panda10 (talk) 20:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)


I will try later to make it work. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:17, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I think that all that needs to be done is to include Module:te-translit in Module:languages/data2 under Telugu. DerekWinters (talk) 04:20, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's the right place but need to make it work first. Something is not right with diacritics: Module:te-translit/testcases --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:33, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
It looks better now, I used literal diacritics, not UTF codes, which were for another script, anyway. Please check: Module talk:te-translit. Do you actually know Telugu? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:07, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. No, I don't know how to speak Telugu, but I do know how to write it. The Indic scripts are very to learn once one is, because they are all so similar. DerekWinters (talk) 05:13, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
So, there's no dropping of inherent "a"? Telugu is now partially enabled. To make it mandatory in headword templates, the templates need to change or if manual transliteration is removed, the automatic will work, e.g. see అంకపాళి(aṃkapāḷi) (the first noun I've come across). You can try Tamil, Kannada, etc. based on the Telugu module. If you want to edit here, please consider adding Babel to your user page. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:41, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the Southern Indian writing systems do not leave off the inherent "a" as the Northern Indian scripts do out of "laziness". Thank you very much. I just made a Kannada one Module:kn-translit, but the test cases are having a problem Module:kn-translit/testcases. Could you take a look? DerekWinters (talk) 05:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what the problem is there but I will look into it, when I'm at my desktop. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
It seems to work now but please check if all letters are transliterated correctly and nothing's missing. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:44, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the Kannada one is good, no issues. Thank you for all the help so far. However, as I tried to make a Tamil one Module:ta-translit, there were complications. There are 3 digraphs, {ஃப-f, ஃஜ-z, ஃஸ-x}, but I am unsure how to deal with them properly. If you could help with that as well? DerekWinters (talk) 02:22, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
I didn't have luck with it, sorry. I have asked a question here: Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2014/January#Module:ta-translit_-_another_transliteration_module_.28Tamil.29. Somebody might help later. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
I made a Malayalam one Module:ml-translit and it seems to be working perfectly. However, the last of the testcases returns an error, even though the transliteration matches the expected perfectly. Either way, I still believe it to be fully functional. DerekWinters (talk) 17:26, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I also just made a Dhivehi one Module:dv-translit and it works perfectly. DerekWinters (talk) 18:25, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. There is some problem with Malayalam, see Module talk:ml-translit. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:53, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The Tamil one has been fixed too now. DerekWinters (talk) 21:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I just finished up someone else's Inuktitut syllabics one Module:iu-translit and it works fine too. DerekWinters (talk) 21:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Very good. You can try other languages but you will have to ask for assistance yourself. Those who can help are not very friendly. Good luck! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, maybe he's not the nicest. And if you're telling me you won't help any longer, I shall be very sad indeed. But for the Tamil and the Inuktitut and the Cherokee I just completed Module:Cher-translit, I was mainly hoping you could simply put them into use. DerekWinters (talk) 23:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
If you're happy with testing, you can do it yourself, you already know where to add translit modules - Module:languages/data2 (for languages with the two letter code). For languages, which share a module, you just need to repeat the same line. Of course, you can ask me questions but my Lua knowledge is limited. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
My only issue is that I cannot actually add to it. I don't have editing rights. DerekWinters (talk) 23:40, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I see. Could you make a list of languages/modules to add, so that I can edit easily, e.g. like this:
Malayalam: translit_module = "ml-translit". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Tamil: translit_module = "ta-translit"
Inuktitut: translit_module = "iu-translit"
Cherokee: translit_module = "Cher-translit" DerekWinters (talk) 23:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
They have been added already: Module:languages/data3/c has Cherokee. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:58, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Oh, thanks. Is it possible I could get editing rights for that page? DerekWinters (talk) 00:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Mass translation-adding[edit]

You need to be more careful when you add blocks of translations: your attempt to add a translation to the computer entry using the non-existent language code "eml" failed with a big fat "Module error: Module error", which you might have noticed if you had checked your edit. FYI, "eml" is a fake code they made up in order to have one for the Emiliano-Romagnol Wikipedia. It's tempting to crib translations from other Wikipedias, but contributors in smaller Wikipedias have a strong tendency to make things up/guess when they don't know a word in their language for something- even when there's a name for it in the language already. Chuck Entz (talk) 08:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


Please don't forget the language section separator: [2]. By the way what's Yoron? Can you add an English entry for it? JamesjiaoTC 21:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Whoops. Yoron is a Ryukuan language, like Okinawan and Miyako. I'll add one. DerekWinters (talk) 02:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)



It seems Yiddish can't be transliterated accurately without vowel points, like Hebrew or Arabic, cf. manual עזה פאס(ezza pas), עזה־שטרײַף(ezza-shtrayf) and automatic עזה פאס(ezh fas), עזה־שטרײַף(ezh-shtrayf) - translations of Gaza Strip. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:17, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Oh I see, I had been under the impression that Yiddish was generally written in a fully pointed way, but it seems that it can vary and is often only partially pointed. Sorry if it caused any errors. DerekWinters (talk) 17:08, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


Are you sure that word is attested in the Inscriptional Pahlavi script? Please see this discussion. --Vahag (talk) 08:55, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I must say that I don't think it is attested in that form. Also, I was not aware of this discussion, so I apologize for my mistake. I can change it back, or would you rather revert the change I made? DerekWinters (talk) 19:52, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
I moved it back. --Vahag (talk) 20:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion[edit]


Please do not speedy delete entries, especially not 5 from one page without an explanation. If you wish to challenge a word, use WT:RFV (and read the page intro of that page to see what qualifies and what doesn't). Thank you, Renard Migrant (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Also, don't delete anything that's in actual use- even erroneously: we're a descriptive, not a prescriptive dictionary. And don't delete terms in scripts that are used by native speakers because they're not the "right" scripts for their languages. Remember, as well, that we aren't limited to any one time or place: if a script was used briefly, then abandoned, we'll want to have entries in the abandoned script for those terms that were known to be written in that script. You can tag incorrect forms as obsolete, proscribed, nonstandard, etc., and you can explain in usage notes why they shouldn't be used. If, on the other hand, you don't think they were ever used with that spelling/script, that's when you would take it to WT:RFV. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:05, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Okinawan kana entries linking to kanji entries[edit]

I noticed you added some more Okinawan content, thank you for that. One minor change to make going forward, please use {{ryu-def}} to link from Okinawana kana entries to their corresponding kanji spellings. I found that you'd used {{ja-def}}, which links to the corresponding Japanese kanji spelling instead of the Okinawan entry.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh whoops. I had copied the code from Japanese entries. I'll be more careful from here on out. DerekWinters (talk) 01:19, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
  • No worries, easy fix.  :) I also noticed that we don't have very many templates for Okinawan. The Japanese templates' code can probably be copied over and tweaked to create new Okinawan templates where required. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


Heya, I'm not fully up on Okinawan, but I do notice that the reading given here matches the mainland on'yomi for 場#Japanese instead. Mainland o shifts to うちなーぐち u, much as the o in okinawa becomes the u in uchinā, so the expected Okinawan on'yomi for 所 would be シュ and for 場 would be ジュー. I checked to see what data that might give, and while that list is not exhaustive, it doesn't include any ジョー readings for 所.

FWIW, I also see the listed kun'yomi is tukuru, following the same o > u shift.

Could you have another look at the 所#Okinawan entry? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:47, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for pointing this out, as I had simply run with this. Other sources do point out that 所 can have both シュ or ジュ (in 御所: うんじゅ) for its onyomi reading, although the second one is probably just because of rendaku. However, notes that 御所 can be うんじょー when topicalized, and perhaps this is what User:Viskonsas saw in some Okinawan text? Should I change them to じゅ?
Side question, what are the Okinawan names for onyomi and kunyomi? DerekWinters (talk) 01:52, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


So if we include any entry for Okinawan うんじょー (or should it be in katakana?), the entry should probably describe this form as a contraction. The じょー part, at any rate, does not appear to be any standard Okinawan reading for .
As far as Viskonsas's edits, yes, those should probably be changed to シュ・ジュ as appropriate. They (he? she?) self-describe as ja-1 with no mention of ryu anything.
  • Re: Okinawan for on'yomi or kun'yomi, I assume that such terms exist in Okinawan, as the phenomenon of both Chinese-derived and native-derived readings for a single character does seem to happen in Okinawan as well, but I don't know what these terms would be. My brief searching so far has also failed to find anything. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:24, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
This is wonderful. Thanks! I'll make the changes to , but I think I'll hold off on うんじゅ and うんじょー for now until I better understand them. Most sources tend to treat Okinawan on the same level as Japanese, using hiragana and kanji for "native" terms and katakana for modern borrowings. I also believe that historically, after the Japanese developed hiragana, it was imported to Okinawa and used there as well. So, overall, I think we should stick to the standard rules we know for Japanese writing for the Ryukyuan languages. DerekWinters (talk) 04:16, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Bengali transliteration module[edit]


Are you still interested in Indic languages? Do you think you can work on Module:bn-translit and Module:gu-translit? I will try to address dropping inherent vowels later for Hindi et al, Bengali, Gujarati. Amharic/Tigrinya have a similar problem with dropping vowels. There's no reason we can make these languages transliterated 100% or nearly 100% automatically, they are much easier than Korean or Arabic. Just need to get some help from Lua gurus. @Dick Laurent, Dijan your help on Bengali transliteration would be much appreciated. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:05, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I'll definitely be able to create a module for Gujarati, but as you noted, the schwa-dropping exists as well in Gujarati (sources say it's different to the schwa-dropping of Hindi, but I've never noticed a difference). Some words will have to be hard-transliterated because Gujarati lacks proper trasnscription for 2 less-used vowel phonemes (ɛ and ɔ), but that shouldn't be too hard.
Bengali on the other hand is a little more complicated (less transparent) and I never have truly learned the script. I'll make a basic Bengali module, but it most definitely won't be ready to use until someone with expertise makes some changes.
Also, I noticed a defect with the Tamil module. "Plosives are unvoiced if they occur word-initially or doubled. Elsewhere they are voiced." I, too, have noticed this, but I'm unable to code Lua with such skill. DerekWinters (talk) 12:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
So I've made a Gujarati module, but the testcases show what the main issues are. 1st is the schwa-dropping. 2nd is the uṃ sequence word-finally. It is always to be transliterated ũ, but I am unsure how to code that. 3rd is the issue of ṃ in front of a consonant.
ṃ in front of a velar (k, kh, g, gh) is . In front of a palatal letter (c, ch, j, jh) it is ñ. In front of a retroflex (ṭ, ṭh, ḍ, ḍh) it is . In front of a labial (p, ph, b, bh, m) it is m. In front of a dental (t, th, d, dh) and all remaining consonants (y, r, l, v, ḷ, ś, ṣ, s, h) it is simply n. I also don't know how to code this. Also, this last issue I noted is common to all Indic languages except in a few cases where words will have to be hard-transliterated.
I don't know what we should do about Bengali transliteration. I can see the merits of sticking with a more scholarly system, given the differences in pronunciation between Indian and Bengali dialects, but it shouldn't be identical to the systems used for other Indic languages. For example, where others use a short vowel "a," in Bengali this vowel is pronounced "o," and of course as you guys mention, that vowel is often dropped. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks very much. I will address it in due course. Ric, we can choose one system and stick to it. I think you meant "ô", not "o" (the short vowel). There is no 100% consistency in transliterating dropped vowels, so if we come up with a working logic, we could use for many languages like Hindi, Gujarati, Bengali and (surprisingly) Amharic/Tigrinya (short vowel "ə"), e.g. ዩክሬን(yukren) should be "yukren". Amharic et al (Module:Ethi-translit) also have gemination issue, which is not expressed graphically. Native speakers don't have any problem with it and it seems that some transliterations ignore it altogether. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
I also made an Oriya transliteration module. Its testcases show the same problem of schwa dropping (or in this case ô-dropping). Module:or-translit. DerekWinters (talk) 18:09, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Do you think you can write a short paragraph describing the rules when, e.g. in Hindi, the inherent vowel "a" is dropped: e.g. ("C" is any consonant, "V" is any vowel, apart from "a") CaCaCa = CaCaC, CeCaCāCaCī = CeCCāCCī (devanāgarī = devnāgrī), etc.? Does it matter, which consonants are involved, e.g. in consonant clusters? CaCCCa = CaCCC or CaCCCa? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
The idea behind vowel dropping lies with syllabification. A schwa at the end of a syllable is always dropped.
करन - क|रन (ka|ran) (the 'na' becomes 'n')
करना - कर|ना (kar|nā) (the 'ra' becomes 'r)
One major exception is if the schwa is part of a consonant cluster involving a "special" consonant (y, r, l, v, h, ṇ, n, and m) word-finally. The schwa here is not dropped. The words syllabifies by the first member of the cluster becoming part of the previous syllable, and the rest of the cluster becoming its own syllable.
वस्त्र - वस्|त्र (vas|tra) (the 'tra' remains because 'r' is a special consonant)
भस्म - भस्|म (bhas|ma) (the 'ma' remains because 'm' is a special consonant)
Another is if the schwa is part of any consonant cluster (or gemination) word-medially. The schwa here is not dropped. Syllabification happens just as above.
अस्पताल - अस्|प|ताल (as|pa|tāl) (the 'pa' remains because it is part of the cluster)
उत्तम - उत्|तम (ut|tam) (the 'ta' remains because part of cluster) (the 'ma' becomes 'm' because end of syllable)
I laid out a list of some CVC formations.
S - Special Consonants (y, r, l, v, h, ṇ, n, and m)
R - Regular Consonants (all other consonants)
X - any vowel ('a' and all the others)
T - any consonant combination (C or CCC, etc.)
An 'a' on an initial consonant is never dropped.
An 'a' in independent form is never dropped. (अ)
XCa = XC (ila = il)
XCRa = XCR (opsa = ops)
XCSa = XCSa (ustra = us‧tra)
TXCa = TXC (skela = skel)
TXCRa = TXCR (drupta = drupt)
TXCSa = TXCSa (blisva = blis‧va)
XTXCa = XTXC (ertopa = er‧top) (ertapa = er‧tap)
XTXCRa = XTXCR (ertopsa = er‧tops)
XTXCSa = XTXCSa (ertopya = er‧top‧ya)
XCaCV = XCCV (utasi = ut‧si)
XCaTV = XCATV (utasmi = u‧tas‧mi)
XTaTV = XTaTV (ektammo = ek‧tam‧mo) (ektalo = ek‧ta‧lo)
DerekWinters (talk) 09:58, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@DerekWinters, could you please check if the actual cases in Module:hi-translit/testcases conform. User:Wyang has kindly added and fixed most of them. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:12, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Could you check if अंगरेज़ (as opposed to अंग्रेज़) should be "aṁgrez", not "aṁgarez". The latter has a virama (्) after ग, so no problem there but the former hasn't got it. Also pinging @Wyang. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I am super dooper impressed. Very, very, very impressed. The transliteration aṁgrez (actually angrez) is correct for both. अंगरेज़ and अंग्रेज़ both get split the same way: अंग्‧रेज़ / अंग‧रेज़. DerekWinters (talk) 11:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I believe this system will work for Gujarati, Marathi, Sindhi, Kutchi, Rajasthani, Marwari, Bhojpuri, Konkani, Saurashtra. Beyond that, I'm not sure if any other languages would work. Gujarati and Kutchi share the same script (Gujarati). Saurashtra has its own script (Saurashtra). All the others use Devanagari. Do you know what we should do about Bengali, Oriya, etc.? @Atitarev DerekWinters (talk) 07:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. I don't feel comfortable with Lua, though. Are you able to make a basic Bengali module based on WT:BN TR, perhaps? Then we can ask Wyang to do his magic tricks, also for Gujarati and Oriya by copying the logic? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I'll make a Bengali module, but we'll have to have someone verify it before we even try to work with it. DerekWinters (talk) 14:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for being a lazy poo. I made some edits to the bn-translit module, but after visiting the wiki article and other sources on the Bengali alphabet, I realized why I'm so terrified of it. It's a lot, and we need an expert to help us here. DerekWinters (talk) 08:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)


Hey. Could you check that entry? I'm pretty sure that the transliteration is wrong and I'm not sure if the definition is correct. --Dijan (talk) 02:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Oops, sorry about that. I fixed the definition. I don't believe the transliteration is wrong though: હ(ha)રિ(ri)કેન(ken). DerekWinters (talk) 03:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I did fix it before you did :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:52, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Oops, I must have just completely forgotten. Whoops. Forgive me. DerekWinters (talk) 04:53, 3 February 2015 (UTC)


I'm curious, did you mean to list the definition as water, or was that a copypaste error? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:20, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh god. Do forgive me. I keep making these copy-paste errors. I absolutely hate writing an entry from scratch so I copy-paste and sometimes I forget key things. DerekWinters (talk) 08:15, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
  • No worries, I've done that too, with similar erroneous results sometimes.  :) FWIW, you might find the edittools JavaScript useful: [[User talk:Conrad.Irwin/edittools.js]]. This allows you to define your own one-click insertion items. I've found this extremely helpful over the years. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 08:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi. Some of the recent English terms you've added don't seem to be citable per WT:ATTEST, and I've sent a couple to WT:RFV. If these can in fact be cited, can you please help do so, and if not, can you please refrain from adding such entries? Thank you! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:51, 11 May 2015 (UTC)


Hi. How wrong is my new entry ᐅᓪᓗᕆᐊᖅ? --Type56op9 (talk) 13:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

@Type56op9 Hey, no need to be so pessimistic. It's actually a rather solid entry. Nothing at all wrong with it. If you wish to make it stronger however, you could add the categories it would fall under (just check the star to see which ones), an etymology, a pronunciation, and even sample sentences or citations. Keep up the good work. DerekWinters (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
No need to be so optimistic. I can't do anything like that. --Type56op9 (talk) 22:25, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
@Type56op9 :) Even just adding new terms like this is a extremely helpful to the project. DerekWinters (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, that's the kind of message you wanna send me. --Type56op9 (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


Hey DW. Fancy being burdened with administrative tools? --Type56op9 (talk) 22:48, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I mean, would you accept the great honour of becoming a systems operator? --Type56op9 (talk) 22:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
@Type56op9 What would this entail? DerekWinters (talk) 00:56, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Thankless tasks mostly: Being the guy who cleans up after vandals. Deleting pages, protecting pages, changing the Main Page and other proctected pages, blocking users. --Type56op9 (talk) 08:01, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I mean, it is a true honour. You will be able to do lots of cool things! You can see the content of deleted pages, many of which include personal information of our users; you can get rid of users you disagree with, your opinion will be worth more in our forums, and you'll have loads of fun! --Type56op9 (talk) 08:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
@Type56op9 I've done some research myself and I've decided that I'll take you up on the offer. DerekWinters (talk) 22:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Sweet. Please accept here --Type56op9 (talk) 09:53, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
@Type56op9 Thanks for supporting me. And I must say, your style of writing (speech) is very refreshing here on wiktionary. DerekWinters (talk) 15:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
@Type56op9 Just remove the vote, it seems futile. DerekWinters (talk) 21:25, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


After your edits, there are 35 entries with the redlinked Category:Gujarati terms needing gender. It looks like the {{head}} template is adding Category:Gujarati terms with incomplete gender to the same entries, and there are no other categories in the format "[language] terms needing gender". There's also an error in at least one entry due to setting cat2 twice. Is there a reason you have it set up this way? Chuck Entz (talk) 20:08, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz I seem to have messed up there. I was certain that I'd seen a category somewhere that handled missing gender, but I couldn't find the exact name for it, so I modeled it after the other category that was already set up as Category:Gujarati terms needing transliteration. I've gone ahead and removed the cat2. I hope that's fixed the problems at hand. Sorry for any inconveniences. DerekWinters (talk) 16:42, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Telugu module[edit]

Derek, in ఫలింౘు(phaliṃtsu), the letter (tsa, u+0c58) is not being transliterated. Also ౙంకు(dzaṃku), (dza, u+0c59). Can you have a look? —Stephen (Talk) 12:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown Thank you for notifying me. I'd never even heard of those letters. I've added the letters, checked them, and they work now :) DerekWinters (talk) 03:10, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, looks good. Yes, there are a few special, classical and rare characters: (tsa), (dza), (), (l̥̄), () (w:avagraha, or apostrophe ’, referring to the Sanskrit letter (), u+0c3d), (0⁄4) (fraction sign 04, u+0c78), (¼) (fraction sign 14, u+0c79), (2⁄4) (fraction sign 24, u+0c7a), (¾) (fraction sign 34, u+0c7b), (0⁄16) (fraction sign 016, u+0c66), (1⁄16) (fraction sign 116, u+0c7c), (2⁄16) (fraction sign 216, u+0c7d), (3⁄16) (fraction sign 316, u+0c7e), ౿(౿) (tuumu sign, an antiquated measuring unit for grains, u+0c7f)). —Stephen (Talk) 04:30, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown I added the avagraha and the extra numerals too, thanks. I think that almost everything from the Unicode chart can be transliterated now. Also, would you happen to know the way (if any) that Telugu accomodates Arabic/Persian/Urdu and English loanwords that use z, f, x, q, ɣ, ʒ, etc.? I was thinking that Telugu might use some variation of the nukta like Hindi does, or perhaps even something similar to the Tamil āytam. DerekWinters (talk) 16:00, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
No, I don’t know what Telugu does with those languages. However, you can ask User:Rajasekhar1961. User:Rajasekhar1961 is native Telugu, and educated (he’s a doctor of medicine), and he’s very interested in the Telugu entries, both here and on the Telugu Wiktionary. —Stephen (Talk) 17:46, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown Thank you very much. I'll be sure to ask him. DerekWinters (talk) 00:04, 18 July 2015 (UTC)


Most sources on Proto-Kartvelian use the Latin script for reconstructions. Please do not change them to the Georgian script. --Vahag (talk) 19:31, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Just a reminder to be careful when editing[edit]

[3]Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:27, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Broken {{borrowing}}[edit]

Your change to Module:etymology/templates caused a lot of breakage. Can you fix it? Benwing2 (talk) 04:58, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah sorry... DerekWinters (talk) 04:58, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 05:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

inter-wiki help need[edit]

When i see this module, we felt very happy. I have one request on behalf of them. Is it possible to do the transliteration reversely. That is English to Tamil. If possible we will do the tech to our Indian languages.--த*உழவன்(info-farmer) (talk) 11:26, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@Info-farmer I'll definitely try. I'll let you know soon. DerekWinters (talk) 16:28, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Middle Persian[edit]

Hello. Book Pahlavi is not in Unicode. You should not replace the Romanizations with Inscriptional Pahlavi, a different script. Also, no Manichaean fonts exist, even though it is now in Unicode. It is the consensus among the Middle Iranian editors on Wiktionary to use Romanizations for lemmas of Middle Iranian languages, except for the words attested in Inscriptional Pahlavi and Inscriptional Parthian. See also Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-09/Romanization of languages in ancient scripts 2. --Vahag (talk) 10:10, 5 December 2015 (UTC)


The module error seems to be due to your changes to the data module. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:36, 22 December 2015 (UTC)


Why are you replacing etymologies of Hindi and Gujarati words from Sanskrit with {{borrowing}}? They are all Indo-Aryan languages, so shouldn't {{bor}} be limited to Persian and English loanwords? I'm just curious. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't know about any specific cases, but, in general, it's entirely possible for terms from a literary language to be both inherited and borrowed. When inherited, it stays in continuous use as the parent language evolves into the daughter language, reflecting any sound changes that happen along the way. When borrowed, someone reads it (or, in this case, perhaps hears it recited) centuries later, and adopts it into their language directly. Think about all of the religious terminology in Hindi that's pure Sanskrit. Those terms may contain basic vocabulary that has made its way separately down to Hindi by inheritance, but the precise combination that has religious meaning is intentionally kept as close to the Sanskrit original as possible.
When you're doing etymology, you have to look at the history of the individual terms. The whole language may have been indirectly inherited from Sanskrit (actually Old Indic, of which Sanskrit is a very artificial subset), but individual terms may have been borrowed directly from Sanskrit, or indirectly via another language that got it from Sanskrit. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Exactly what Chuck said. For example, the Hindi word काम is inherited from कर्म -> कम्म (through assimilation) -> काम (simplification and compensatory lengthening). Thus I would say that काम is inherited, but कर्म is borrowed. These words have been borrowed as opposed to having been inherited. However, it gets really murky along the lines, as every new stage of Indic languages tried to sound like its former stage in an effort to sound erudite and intelligent. Thus, the Prakrits, while originally celebrating their separateness from Sanskrit, began borrowing heavily from it in learned speech. The Apabramshas, again, celebrated their distinctness from their Prakrit forebears, but then began borrowing lexically and morphologically from them and lexically from Sanskrit. And the same has happened with the new Indo-Aryan languages. A good example of different forms of the same language are Shadhu-bhasha and Cholitobhasha for Bangla. DerekWinters (talk) 18:32, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
That makes complete sense! कम्म is actually attested as Pali kamma, so that was a very good example. And the digloss in Indic languages is quite common - in Hindi there's शुद्ध हिंदी(śuddh hindī) and the spoken version हिंदुस्तानी(hindustānī). According to my Odia textbook, the same applies for that language. Thank you for the explanation! —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 18:43, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm glad it helped :). It's fairly common in all modern (and most historical) Indian languages to have very high levels of Sanskritic loanwords. And diglossia is when two different languages are actually spoken concurrently by the population. Hindi doesn't really have that though. Shuddh Hindi and Hidustani differ only in vocabulary, not morphology. Gujarati also isn't diglossic (except for maybe Hindi and some English in today's Gujarat?), but you can even find Old Gujarati forms borrowed into the language for use in bhajans and kirtans, etc. to give an old or rustic feel to them. DerekWinters (talk) 21:05, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh, I seem to have misunderstood the meaning of diglossia - I thought it meant when there were two registers of the same language, one with higher prestige. Again, thanks for the knowledge! —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 23:42, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't think you're so far off. In diglossic situations, there are two different dialects or languages, with different prestige. Usually, the languages are fairly closely related; it seems a bit odd to me to refer to English/Gujarat as diglossia, but technically I think it's correct. I'm not sure whether two registers that differ largely or only in vocabulary would count as diglossia, although Wikipedia does indicate both Hindi and Urdu as diglossic. Among Indian languages, Tamil definitely has diglossia. Benwing2 (talk) 01:54, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
BTW I agree with Chuck and Derek that you can have borrowings from an earlier form of the language. The Romance languages, for example, have tons of borrowings from Latin. Benwing2 (talk) 01:58, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Diglossia is with another language or a higher form of the same language. Its just where there are two languages with differing levels of prestige and usage within a community. So Shadhubhasha and Cholitobhasha are (were) the diglossic forms of Bengali, but I would also say that high levels of Arabic proficiency in Nigeria, within a Fulani community, would be classified as diglossia. DerekWinters (talk) 02:11, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Ngoko, Krama, & Krama Inggil[edit]

I think that's a brilliant idea! However, I'm not good at creating template. Cahyo Ramadhani (talk) 00:06, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


Is there a distinction between "afterbears" and the more usual "descendants"? DTLHS (talk) 01:12, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Oh no not really. I'll switch it. DerekWinters (talk) 01:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC)


{{kok-pos}} exists. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 13:14, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Just curious[edit]

Hey I'm just curious about the title of the source where you got the Tagalog words like balnidinagipik and balngawsukatan. Thanks.

@Mar vin kaiser Hello. Sorry for the delay, just got back from vacation. Oh my. Those were so long ago, to be honest, my zeal was such at that time, I may have simply seen it somewhere online and found that to be worthwhile enough to add it. If you don't see any valid reason to keep them, feel free to remove them. DerekWinters (talk) 04:24, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
If they don't meet the requirements of WT:ATTEST, they should be deleted. Derek, if you know now that you created them in error, please put {{delete}} on each of the entries like that. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge Well, see, I'm not sure at this point if they are valid terms or not. If Mar vin kaiser can confirm one way or another, I'll take the appropriate steps. DerekWinters (talk) 05:44, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
balngawsukatan was probably a scanning or typing error. It probably should be balangaw sukatan (literally, rainbow metrics). The entry balnidinagipik at least needs another "a", balani dinagipik, and I think "dinagipik" is also not quite correct.
Your terms seem to come from here. The correct spellings should be in a scientific dictionary named Maugnaying Talasalitaang Pang-agham Ingles-Pilipino, by Gonsalo del Rosario. However, it is out of print and no copies are available for sale. It can be found in many major libraries. Someone has photocopied the dictionary (jpeg), a page at a time, and it is available for free download here. It is awkward to use, since it consists of something like 300 individual jpegs (not searchable). —Stephen (Talk) 10:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
It won't make them searchable, but maybe merging them in to a single pdf might help.Crom daba (talk) 11:45, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Old Uyghur[edit]

Hey, I've noticed you made Old Uighur ᠨᠤᠮ(nom) a year or so ago. I'm guessing it's not the same encoding as Mongol script, judging by the fact that it's a different page from Mongolian ᠨᠣᠮ(nom), so how did you get O. Uyghur characters? Wikipedia only has images of the letters. Crom daba (talk) 22:25, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@Crom daba From my memory, I had seen Old Uighur ᠨᠤᠮ(nom) as a redlink on here, with its pronunciation as 'nom'. I can, very slowly, read some Mongolian, and cross-referenced it with some source, and just added it from the redlink. Doing some research now, it seems Unicode has both an "o" and an "u", which both look the exact same (actually though). I'm not sure what to do. DerekWinters (talk) 01:16, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


If it's of any assistance, Walter Till gives śḏd as the etymology. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:45, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo You're right. I shouldn't be dumb. There's a clear ⲥ right there. Thanks :) DerekWinters (talk) 01:52, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Nothing dumb about it, as I guess the roots are anyways related. If you'd like I could give you a pointer to a few references on Coptic etymology. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:18, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
@Lingo Bingo Dingo Thanks. Yeah that would be great if you could. DerekWinters (talk) 14:24, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
A quick and easy reference is Westendorf, Koptisches Handwörterbuch (German). More extensive are Černý, Coptic Etymological Dictionary (English), and Vycichl, Kasser, Dictionnaire étymologique de la langue copte (French). Probably present at larger libraries. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:47, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
Thank you very much! DerekWinters (talk) 20:17, 8 October 2016 (UTC)