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User talk:Bequw

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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
Question of the Day: Dummy edits208:51, 27 July 2010
Templates sul and sgd115:40, 25 July 2010
{{temp|usex/suffix}}103:18, 23 July 2010
Trivia and anagrams308:56, 18 July 2010
OCS alternative forms and spellings1310:12, 16 July 2010
Obtuse abbreviations403:10, 14 July 2010
Old French citations122:34, 13 July 2010
rw213:17, 6 July 2010
Right-hand TOC320:28, 4 July 2010
seeTalk117:32, 2 July 2010
Show replies not working for me623:09, 1 July 2010
Unwatching315:19, 1 July 2010
Character/symbol entries314:54, 1 July 2010
Dangling tearoom templates1720:46, 30 June 2010
KYPark's etymologies223:56, 24 June 2010
Test105:16, 24 June 2010
Mismatched wikisyntax122:07, 21 June 2010
Entry Creation Bug105:15, 21 June 2010

Question of the Day: Dummy edits

Does anyone around here make dummy edits (making insignificant edits just to be able to leave an edit summary)?

Bequw τ00:37, 27 July 2010

I've made dummy edits before, but nothing to do with the edit summary. Usually it's to leave a comment in the comment box.

—Stephen02:46, 27 July 2010

I've done it to correct an edit summary I left on the previous edit (or very occasionally to add one I forgot to leave). I don't recall doing it as a standalone edit though. Thryduulf (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)08:51, 27 July 2010

Templates sul and sgd

Hello! Look at Template:sgd and Template:sul. I renamed "sgd" to "sul", but later I understood, that sul is retired code. So I tried to return things back.

Delete again, please, Template:sul.

Andrew Krizhanovsky15:28, 25 July 2010

Deleted. Everything else looks back to normal. Good job catching your own mistake.

Bequw τ15:40, 25 July 2010


What do you think of this template? I wasn't sure about the parameter / template names.

Nadando22:10, 22 July 2010

Template looks good. I think (though I'm not sure) we shy away from slashes in templates used directly by users.

Bequw τ03:18, 23 July 2010

Trivia and anagrams

Random idea of the day: Do anagrams seem like trivia (lexicographical trivia at least)? Does anyone feel we could put them under the trivia header? For reference here are the entries that currently have both.

One wrinkle is that anagrams are always L3, but trivia is often L4/5. Thoughts are appreciated.

Bequw τ20:03, 17 July 2010

I completely disagree. Anagrams have various useful functions, e.g. for scrabble and crosswords, and they are always going to be L3 as they are independent of any one part of speech.

Most of the trivia sections should just be deleted, e.g. the ones about winning words in spelling bees are just cruft that should be in an encyclopaedia article about that competition (although it's probably too trivial to be in Wikipedia article).

Of the ones that do actually contain dictionaric information, this is about a particular sense of the word or about the pronunciation, and so should be tied to the relevant sense, POS or pronunciation. Thryduulf (talk) 22:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)22:07, 17 July 2010

I don't think anagram's uses in games raises it above "trivia" (nor does anything else at w:Anagram#Applications for that matter). I don't imagine we'd have much trivia at all so a single L3 with qualifiers referencing specific PoS's or senses could work if desired. We should have a BP discussion about acceptable material in the trivia header.

Bequw τ04:39, 18 July 2010

Go ahead and start it then. I disagree that anagrams use for (two of?) the most popular linguistic games makes them trivial, although many of the other things listed in that section are indeed trivial. Thryduulf (talk) 08:56, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)08:56, 18 July 2010

OCS alternative forms and spellings

[1] - please stop doing this for OCS. There is a reason why these two are separate.

Ivan Štambuk14:10, 15 July 2010

Sure. What's the reason?

Bequw τ14:12, 15 July 2010

I agree with BQ here, if they're synonyms they go in the synonyms sections, but entries shouldn't use both alternative forms and spellings. The second is just a more specific case of the first.

Mglovesfun (talk)14:25, 15 July 2010

Alternative spellings is for the spellings in the alternative script (Glagolitic/Cyrillic), and alternative forms if for variant forms of the same word. OCS corpus is stratified geographically and diachronically, so some words have variant forms reflecting different sound changes in different dialects or epochs.

Ivan Štambuk14:29, 15 July 2010

I too agree with BQ - there is no reason why any entry needs both "alternative forms" and "alternative spellings".

Both Japanese and Serbian, which also use multiple scripts, put the form of the word in the other scripts on the inflection line. Is there a reason this is not done for OCS? Thryduulf (talk) 14:34, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)14:34, 15 July 2010

Spelling in another script is not an "alternative form" of a word - it's the same word in another script. spelling is also not a more specific case of form: spelling implies alternative script or orthography (which could all be "proper" and in simultaneous use), while form encompasses various kinds of etymologically related variants of the same word. In languages with phonological orthography, where differences in pronunciation are reflected in writing, which is the case with OCS but not e.g. English, the difference is much more obvious. dzvězda and zvězda cannot be treated as synonymous; they're as "synonymous" as e.g. English color and colour. Yes the scrips could be handled in the inflection line, and that's probably the best solution, but that will not work in case where there is more than 2 scripts used for a language. For now, merging these two sections, in case of OCS at least, doesn't make sense to me.

Ivan Štambuk15:00, 15 July 2010

I think you're just taking a narrow view of the term "form" whereas others (including myself) are taking a broader view. I want a single general header as people's distinctions between "forms" and "spellings" are often vague and contradictory (as seen here). The key information is still represented under a unified header (the script qualifier accomplishes this). Putting the different scripts for a word on the inflection line is a problem for both layout (when multiple PoS exist) and clarity (a non-inflection being on the inflection line).

Bequw τ17:36, 15 July 2010

What exactly is vague and contradictory in my distinction of spellings/forms? I don't see how having different headers is an issue at all. In case of OCS at least, the distinction makes a lot of sense. Yes in case of multiple PoS these would all have to be repeated, but most editors editing in multiscriptal languages apparently prefer it that way (and so do I). Just because it's called inflection line by convention doesn't mean that it has to contain only inflections.

Ivan Štambuk20:25, 15 July 2010

"Yes the scrips could be handled in the inflection line, and that's probably the best solution, but that will not work in case where there is more than 2 scripts used for a language."

Japanese manages to show three scripts on the inflection line without any issue. Are there any languages that use more than three scripts? Thryduulf (talk) 21:21, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)21:21, 15 July 2010

Saurashtra? Though we currently have no words in that language.

Prince Kassad21:27, 15 July 2010

Sanskrit is written in almost all Indic scripts, although we currently only use Devanagari. Perhaps it works for Japanese, but I don't think that handling 2+ additional scripts would work in the inflection line in alphabetic languages with rich inflection some of which would have to be listed in the inflection line too. The whole line would be too long. Serbo-Croatian has historically been written in 2 other scripts beside Cyrillic and Latin: Glagolitic and alphabetic form of Arabic script. There is no way that these 4 would all fit in the inflection line beside the usual information listed. There is the preliminary template {{sh-variant}} to handle this, based on the successful usage of {{fa-regional}} for Persian variant forms, but it's not used yet. Template-based table approach seems to me superior than either of those two alternatives.

Ivan Štambuk08:07, 16 July 2010

Obtuse abbreviations

PIE (Proto-Indo-European) would be another good one to remove. I changed all the links PIE to Proto-Indo-European, but not the unlinked forms (harder to find).

Mglovesfun (talk)14:27, 27 June 2010

"pp." to "past participle" would be a good expansion too. Thryduulf (talk) 23:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)23:38, 11 July 2010

They'll be in the next scan.

Bequw τ13:04, 13 July 2010

And IE when it refers to Indo-European, try searching for 'IE root'.

Mglovesfun (talk)20:05, 13 July 2010

Old French citations

Thanks for cleaning those up. To be honest I've started using User:Mglovesfun/new citation which writes out citations without templates - but you're free to modify it.

Mglovesfun (talk)22:33, 13 July 2010

No worries. You should use one of the quote-* templates.

Bequw τ22:34, 13 July 2010


Exactly how is "rw" an "unverified ISO 639-1 code"?

Is Kinyarwanda. Of course. What's the issue?

Robert Ullmann10:29, 6 July 2010

"Use-mention distinction", apparently the codes are always mentioned, never used. That's not actually the case, it's more than with 6000 codes you need 18000 citations, and surprisingly enough, nobody's been able to find the necessary 18000 citations in a month.

Mglovesfun (talk)10:32, 6 July 2010

@RU, see WT:BP#ISO language codes (again) for the most recent discussion (which links back to others you might not have seen).

Bequw τ13:17, 6 July 2010

Right-hand TOC

Could I ask you why you inserted the dummy parameter into this gadget? It seems like '.ns-0 #toc' would have been sufficient, and 'html:not([dummyparam]) .ns-0 #toc' makes it so damned specific that no further modifications are possible with this turned on. Would you be amenable to making it a less specific CSS selector? Also, purely out of curiosity, why change the display to inline? Its default display seems to be table.....presumably because it's a table element (I'm still pretty green with CSS, in case you hadn't noticed). Every time I try manually changing the display to 'inline' it goes crazy, and yet.....turning the gadget on does not make it go crazy. Anywho, thanks.

-Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί11:22, 4 July 2010

See WT:Grease pit archive/2010/February#RHS elements in IE8 for the reason to add the CSS selector. Basically RHS ToC looks bad in IE* so we disable this. For technical reasons this could be removed and then the option moved over to PREFS, which is browser-specific. But the idea was to migrate the common preferences to Special:Preferences. Don't let this impinge on innovation, though. Feel free to change it. As for the display being 'inline', I just copied it from somewhere (maybe PREFS?).

Bequw τ15:18, 4 July 2010

Hmmm.....interesting. May I ask if the gadget directly imports the CSS or if it activates some JS which imports the CSS? I've never fiddled with gadgets before, and don't know how to access them. I'll look at WT:PREFS and see who wrote the original (I'm assuming that someone wrote the WT:PREFS bit and you basically copied the gadget off that, right?), and ask them if there's any reason for the display:inline part. I'm thinking that if we can kill that, even if we don't do anything else, it should solve my problem, which is basically the inability to toggle the TOC on and off when the gadget is activated.

-Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί18:59, 4 July 2010

The gadget consists of just a CSS file that Mediawiki has the browser to download. Not sure of the exact details though.

Bequw τ20:28, 4 July 2010


Thanks, this is on my list of things to do (very slowly). Although, why are you replacing [[{{TALKPAGENAME}}]] with seeTalk, as you (or someone) will have to remove them afterwards and swap them for {{documentation}}.

Mglovesfun (talk)17:30, 2 July 2010

Templates that have subst'ed {{seeTalk}}, rather than transclude it, are harder to track down. I'm just making them easier to find them for whoever is doing the cleanup (which might be me).

Bequw τ17:32, 2 July 2010

Show replies not working for me

When I click "show replies" after having marked a thread as read, something happens for a second, but I do not get to see the replies. Is this a bug or a feature? It certainly seems like a pain in the neck.

DCDuring TALK15:24, 1 July 2010

I'm not sure I understand. After I mark a thread as read on Special:NewMessages it disappears so the "show XX replies" link is gone. Can you provide more details to where/how this is happening? Oddly while I'm typing a reply to this thread it shows two copies of my message (one above the other) in the preview mode.

Bequw τ15:35, 1 July 2010
  1. When I go back to look at a thread because I forgot something in it, I would like for it not to be unavailable to me (or available only by possibly painful tracing through history).
  2. In this case, I had gone back to User talk:Bequw via search box. The initial posts for several threads were displayed, with "See replies" in blue, underlined beneath each. When I failed to make the replies visible by clicking on "See Replies", I went to "history" to find what I needed.
DCDuring TALK16:01, 1 July 2010

That seems like a bug. It doesn't do that for me. What's your browser & OS so that we can keep track of it?

Bequw τ18:54, 1 July 2010

Windows XP, latest service packs and updates, FF 3.6.3.

DCDuring TALK21:55, 1 July 2010

Huh, works for me with Vista & FF (or Chrome).

Bequw τ22:19, 1 July 2010


I can't stand liquid threads. The effect of its introduction reminds me of the problem of paying/wasting minute for cellphone calls someone else has made to my cellphone number. Sigh.

DCDuring TALK23:44, 27 June 2010

Same. I thought this was supposed to let us watch discussions at a finer grain, but all it does is give me 28 notifications for a single page, even when I'm not looking at my watch list. Michael Z. 2010-07-01 14:48 z

 Michael Z. 2010-07-01 14:48 z14:48, 1 July 2010


.lqt_watchlist_messages_notice {display:none}

to your skin.css

Bequw τ14:51, 1 July 2010

Thanks for taking the trouble to be nice to us grouches.

DCDuring TALK15:19, 1 July 2010

Character/symbol entries

Edited by another user.
Last edit: 14:56, 30 June 2010

If you take a look at Category:Entries with structure problems, you will find a few entries for characters whose correct structure eludes me. Could you repair them at your convenience or direct me to a page explaining how they should be structured. I don't enjoy these looking at these entries, let alone editing them.

DCDuring TALK14:51, 30 June 2010

I assume you mean Category:Entries with level or structure problems. I'll take a look.

Bequw τ15:04, 30 June 2010

Right. Sorry.

DCDuring TALK15:16, 30 June 2010

Done. I thought we could nest under an L3 Pronunciation section but I guess I was wrong. Sorry

Bequw τ14:54, 1 July 2010

Dangling tearoom templates

Per my most recent comment at WT:BP#Archiving, there are (probably) lots of tea room templates lying around the main namespace long after the discussion has ended. Sorting this out should be possible in two stages - find them and delete them:

  1. Generate a list of all main namespace pages that link to Wiktionary:Tea room
  2. Compare the list with the subject headers currently on the tea room page, removing from the list any that match
  3. Pass the list to a bot, AWB or other automated process
  4. Remove any instances of {{rft}}, {{rft-sense}} and {{tearoom}} on the page
  5. Make a note of the list somewhere so when someone clever than me works out how to find the old discussions in the archive they can be linked to from the article talk page.

I'm asking you, because I don't have the skills necessary to do this and your work with cf(r) -> compare indicates that you do. Thryduulf (talk) 00:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)00:38, 25 June 2010

How would we know that someone didn't add the template to the entry, but forgot to create the TR section?

Bequw τ00:47, 25 June 2010

Hmm, if the template was added recently (say within the last week) we should probably drop a note on the talk page of the user who added the template. Other than that we should just get rid of it, if can be added again after all. I say this because we can't know why the template was added. It's not like an rfv where it's clear what is being asked, and especially on large entries listing it on the rft page without will not lead to much (if anything) more useful than "huh?".

We could parse the archives and see if there is a match to the title there, but I don't know much effort that would be (there would only be a need to look in the archive covering the period ~4 months after the tag was placed if that helps). We could list any that don't match separately, and try and figure out why they were listed, however I'm not sure how successful we'd be with that (per my previous paragraph). Thryduulf (talk) 01:16, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)01:16, 25 June 2010

It's a good idea, but I'm not setup to scan page histories. Try the GP.

Bequw τ02:42, 25 June 2010

Now at the Grease Pit.

As an aside, this is my first real conversation on a liquid threads page, and I'm finding less convenient than a standard talk page due to several niggles, particularly the inability to copy markup and signatures, the lack of popups and the edittools paging not working.

I'm also not a fan of the way the fact that I have new messages (which may or may not relate to a conversation I'm having) demands attention as the most important thing on my screen.

A nice idea, but not ready yet imo. Thryduulf (talk) 09:00, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)09:00, 25 June 2010

Hopefully we'll be able to get our local site JS (edittools & popups) working. We wouldn't use it anywhere prominent until things like that are ready. I like that on my watchlist it shows the # of "messages" above the pages. If/When all discussion pages use them, it would provide a nice separation between watching discussions and watching normal page changes.

Bequw τ15:51, 25 June 2010

I'm finding Liquid thread s to be highly confusing. I get them popping up demanding my attention, but I often have no context whatsoever as to what the thread is about. Titles of threads here have never been especially informative, because the conversation can veer off in any direction. Now, I can't easily look back to see what the conversation was supposed to be about. And, once I've cleared threads that I've read, I have no idea where they went in the event that I need to look at them again. --EncycloPetey 21:09, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

EncycloPetey21:09, 27 June 2010

For anyone wanting to disable the New Messages box on the Watchlist, I've just posted instructions at Help:Customizing your skin. The count still shows up in your header, but it makes your Watchlist more readable.

Bequw τ20:46, 30 June 2010

KYPark's etymologies

Wait, you got rid of all of them? Seriously? That's awesome. Thank you.

-Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί23:47, 24 June 2010

There were only 31 on my list (I encountered them while converting cf → compare. There may be more lurking in the bits.

Bequw τ23:53, 24 June 2010

I'm almost positive there were more than 31, though Stephen did put a lot of work into getting rid of them. Some day I'll have to do a systematic analysis of Korean etymology sections. In any case, thank you for removing 31 of them.

-Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί23:56, 24 June 2010


Testing to see whether a new message with LQT will popup when using AWB. --Bequwbot 01:17, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Bequwbot01:17, 24 June 2010

They do.

Bequwbot05:16, 24 June 2010

Mismatched wikisyntax

Thanks for doing a load of these. If you find any that aren't problems, just delete the listing if the issue causing them is known (see the talk page). If the issue isn't known, then make a note on the talk page and then delete the listing. Cheers Thryduulf (talk) 11:23, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thryduulf (talk)11:23, 21 June 2010

No problem. It would be great if we could get that page down to zero for once. Also, LiquidThread autosign for you:)

Bequw τ22:07, 21 June 2010

Entry Creation Bug

By "doesn't work" in Chrome/Vista, do you mean that it doesn't show up when you click on the link from the search, or that the link doesn't show up at all? (I hope you don't mind me bringing this here instead of keeping it in the BP, but I can't resist the opportunity to use LQT :-)

Yair rand (talk)04:44, 21 June 2010

Ah, the problem is my setup. I was adding an IndexOf function to Array.prototype. This provides backwards compatibility for older IE browsers, but messes with the "... in ..." pattern that you use. I should get rid of it anyways as we don't strive for full compatibility in all browsers. I like LQT too. Odd that it wouldn't render the external link correctly in the subject.

Bequw τ05:15, 21 June 2010

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