User talk:LibCae

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Again, welcome! Wyang (talk) 11:24, 2 August 2018 (UTC)


Hey LibCae, keep up the good work. I see you've added Solon (I'm guessing this is the 'Eastern Evenki' you've mentioned) as an alternative form to дылача, previously I've asked for Solon to get a separate code in accordance to its treatment in (Russian) the literature and it was granted, so Solon and Evenki are treated as two languages.

So far I've used either Cyrillic or an ad hoc latin transcription to write Solon since that's how materials I have write it. I see you've written it in Pinyin. Is this an official Pinyin orthography or a scholarly concensus? If yes, could you recommend some resources that I could use to find modern spellings of words given elsewhere? Crom daba (talk) 17:40, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Crom daba, I was originally writing to you about Solon problems but you commented me first. The “Eastern” Evenki speakings I heard were Russo-Yakutians but not Solon. I do agree to a separate treatment for Solon from Evenki on Wiktionary, but I’m not sure yet about it’s language-name acceptance so far. The term Solon is used to call Chinese Evenks historically, obseletely, Russo-linguistically and strictly excluding Chinese Khamnigans, Tunguses and Yakuts.
I added terms according to DU Dao’erji (Do Dorji)’s Ewenki–Chinese Dictionary (in Chinese, 1998). The dictionary used letter barred o, as Du’s 2007-version alphabet shown on Wikipedia used ō. So far there is no true official Evenki script in China (like Chinese Tuvan), but the Ewenki Museum (鄂温克博物馆) in China used Kesingge et al or Du’s alphabet for sign as EWENGKI NI MUZEI.
With it’s standard, the dictionary is mixed-dialectical, including Solon, Khamnigan, and Shilu (使鹿, “reindeer-herding”, for Chinese Yakuts). We may not use the name just Solon by the Russian way, but may Chinese Evenki or Ewenki. The latter is the official ethno-linguistical name for Chinese native Evenks by the People’s Republic. LibCae (talk) 19:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
I would disagree that "Solon" is obsolete in English. Flipping through most recent work, Andreas Hölzl and José Andrés Alonso de la Fuente, if stuff from 2000s is valid there's also Tsumagari, Gorelova, Zhang (Kilen grammar) and Nikolaeva. A notable exception are Janhunen and Khabtagaeva who write "Solon Evenki/Ewenki".
Du's dictionary looks very useful, I support using his orthography, although maybe ɵ could be replaced with ō. Mixed nature of the dictionary may be a problem though, is there a way to tell whether a given word is Solon, Khamnigan or Yakut (these are probably what we call Oroqen in English, they also have a separate language code in our scheme, although AFAIK they aren't significantly different from other Evenki groups)? Crom daba (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, ‘obseletely’ I meant just in Chinese. The subgroups of Evenks without official status shown are certainly not the Oroqens (which is one of the ‘fifty-six ethnic groups’). I’m sorry that Du didn’t label dialectical informations of terms, but the terms ‘Khamnigan’ and ‘Yakut’ there both means an Evenki dialect, due to geographical issues, the variations of these dialects (especially phonemically) seem not to be so much. LibCae (talk) 21:01, 21 August 2018
Dialect mixing's unfortunate, although it doesn't mean we can't compare Solon terms given elsewhere with Du and adopt his orthography. How do you feel about ɵ/ō?
I'm trying to piece together a picture of Evenki dialects, but getting good info is hard. This work by Doerfer (in German) helps to delineate Solon from Oroqen (Birar-Kumar-Gankui), but doesn't mention any dialectal division within Solon and it doesn't mention Khamnigan and Yakuts. The only information I could find on the Yakut Evenki of China is this page. If Chinese Khamnigan and Yakuts are similar to Evenki dialects spoken in Zabaykalsky Krai and on the Russian part of Argun river respectively, they could potentially be very different from Solons proper. Crom daba (talk) 23:49, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Barred o is adoptable. About the dialects, I just found a Chinese disquisition (by CHAO Ke, 1985). I know that you don’t understand Chinese, I’ll read it. And, I’ve already seen a qs variation in Du’s dictionary: qaalbangsaalbang—‘birch’. LibCae (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Actually Tsumagari does mention the non-Solon Chinese Evenki dialects, weird how I didn't check that first:
<blockqoute>Thus,according to the Chinese terminology, the Ewenki people are subdivided into:(1) the Solon Ewenki

(Chi. Suolun Ewenke), (2) the Tungus Ewenki ( Tonggusi Ewenke), and (3) the Yakut Ewenki( Yakute Ewenke). Of these three, the Solon group accounts for 90 per cent of the total population of some 29000 Ewenkis (1992). In Chinese usage,the Ewenki language ( Ewenke-yu) practically means the language of the Solon group, while the languages of the other two groups are regarded as the dialects of the former. According to the generally accepted linguistic classification of Tungusic, however, the language of the Solon group should be regarded as a separate language (i.e. Solon), not as a dialect of Siberian Ewenki (Rus.Evenk) as the name implies. On the other hand,so-called Tungus Ewenki (aka Khamnigan Ewenki) and Yakut Ewenki (aka Oluguya Ewenki), together with the language of the Orochen (Elunchun) which is another officially recognized Tungusic minority in China,can be identified as dialects of Ewenki proper (see Janhunen 1991 and Tsumagari 1992, 1997b).

He also has a work about them that I cannot access: A basic vocabulary of Khamnigan and Oluguya Ewenki in northern Inner Mongolia.
Solon s is a regular reflex of Proto-Tungusic *ç, although it is sporadically preserved so this might or might not be indicative of dialect mixing in the dictionary. Crom daba (talk) 00:51, 22 August 2018 (UTC)