Module talk:grc-conj

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Movable nu[edit]

Forms with movable nu don't show up in search results. Searching e.g. "ἐποίησεν" yields nothing, whereas "ἐποίησε" or "ἐποίησε(ν)" does. I suggest that instead of parentheses fully expanded spelling is used, i.e. "ἐποίησε, ἐποίησεν". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:37, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Done. (Sorry it took so long... for some reason this wasn't on my watchlist.) ObsequiousNewt (ἔβαζα|ἐτλέλεσα) 19:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

In irregular verbs like εἶμι (eîmi), can the module be made to recognize the forms with movable nu (ν) such as εἶσι (eîsi) and give a link to the form with movable nu on the nu, as in {{grc-decl}} (for instance, with αἰξῐ́(ν) in αἴξ (aíx)? At the moment, εἶσι(ν) just links to the nonexistent page εἶσι(ν). The alternative is to say εἶσι/εἶσιν (basically as is done in the table in εἰμί (eimí)). — Eru·tuon 22:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, never mind. Per @Ivan Štambuk's comment above, the table should have expanded spelling. — Eru·tuon 23:00, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

There is a distinct problem with this, however: certain forms vary in multiple ways. Namely, the perfect active subjunctive 3pl, which can be -ότες ὦσῐ(ν) or -ωσῐ(ν). Similarly, the Epic present active indicative, which may vary between as many as five forms: -ειν, -μεν(αι), -έμεν(αι). This is all to say nothing of the fact that one cannot find λύουσιν by searching anyway, because the form displayed in the inflection table would be λῡ́ουσῐν. Which is why my prescribed solution is to actually make an inflection bot. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 17:36, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Handling πλέω[edit]

@ObsequiousNewt The template documentation says to use {{grc-conj|pres-con-em|πλ}} and {{grc-conj|imperf-con-em|ἐπλ}} for the present and imperfect of πλέω (pléō), but when I tried to do so I got a module error: diff. Any ideas? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

@Angr In all honesty, either code it as pres-con-e, or just leave it for now. I'm actually working right now on recoding the entire module (partly because it's kludgy, and partly so I can add diacritic support like in grc-decl.) —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 22:19, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
Actually, from πνέω (pnéō) I learned that what works is {{grc-conj|pres-con-e-mono|πν}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:10, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
...That would work. Note to self, put more descriptive error messages in the module. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 15:46, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Dialectal forms of contract verbs[edit]

@JohnC5, I'm so meta even this acronym, Erutuon, Angr, etc: Each major dialect of Ancient Greek basically has its own separate rules for contraction (Epic/Herodotus doesn't contract but uses ευ when it does, or uses assimilated forms; severe Doric uses η/ίο, Æolic uses athematic verbs...) which makes it very hard to display all possible forms in a single table (or even multiple tables, although that's largely a difficulty in programming) and in any case that's a lot of information to be displayed, especially for a class of verbs that is not only productive but probably the most common type in Greek. Given this, I would like to propose that we display only the Attic contracted forms (alongside the uncontracted forms)—anyone who wants a dialectal form is probably knowledgeable enough to be able to derive it from the uncontracted form. If a dialectal form is attested, it would warrant its own page anyway, and therefore the relevant table can be displayed there instead.

Thoughts or alternate proposals? —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 20:48, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Hmm. I can only comment on Attic and Epic, since I haven't had any experience actually reading Aeolic or Doric, and don't really know the forms.
I personally think the εο > ευ synaeresis should be displayed somewhere. We shouldn't assume the reader is knowledgeable. There are bound to be newbies reading Greek works in Ionic or Epic who don't know all this stuff. I sure hope so, at least. And displaying the synaeretic forms lets someone search Wiktionary and find the right lemma, if there's not an entry on the form.
The "uncontracted" forms are used in Epic and Ionic, and the synaeresis naturally goes along with these forms. It is weird that we don't show it. It wouldn't add too much to the table in, say, ποιέω (poiéō), since εο only occurs in a few forms:
  • ποιεῦμεν, ποιεύντων, ποιεῦμαι, ποιεῦν, ποιεύμενος (-η -ον)
  • (ἐ)ποίευν, (ἐ)ποιεῦμεν, (ἐ)ποιεύμην, (ἐ)ποιεύμεθα, (ἐ)ποιεῦντο
Well, there are quite a few cases in the imperfect, actually. But only a half or a third of the forms in each table can have synaeresis, so it wouldn't add too much height to the table.
I certainly think it would be nice if the inflection tables could be made more readable somehow (I mean, there are so many present and imperfect tables in ποιέω (poiéō)), but not sure how. — Eru·tuon 21:41, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
I say go for it. There are so many present and imperfect tables in ποιέω (poiéō), a few more won't matter. We already have several labeled Doric, Epic, and Ionic. The only other thing I can think of would be to have separate subpages for inflection like de-wikt has for German verbs; then we could have ποιέω/Ionic forms (poiéō/Ionic forms), ποιέω/Doric forms (poiéō/Doric forms), ποιέω/Aeolic forms (poiéō/Aeolic forms), and so on, keeping the main page for the "classical" Attic/Koine forms. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:30, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
@Erutuon: I can add those forms, but adding all of the "assimilated" άω forms would basically require a separate page.
@Angr: For something like ποιέω, perhaps (although the Doric and Ionic forms should probably be on separate pages), but I'm a little more hesitant to do it with, say, μοναυλέω, a typical compound with only one citation in LSJ. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 16:27, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Well, no, there's no reason to do it for verbs that aren't even attested in the minor dialects. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:56, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
@Angr: I like the idea of having subpages. I was considering the possibility of, say, putting Attic contracted forms at φιλῶ (philô), but that would make it hard for people to find the forms. Best to have them as subpages off the same main page. — Eru·tuon 19:53, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Contraction[edit]

Seems like the parameter |cform= does the opposite of what it should; in ἀφαιρέω (aphairéō) adding |cform=con to the Koine future ἀφελ- (aphel-) makes the template only display uncontracted forms. — Eru·tuon 22:28, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

The new version of {{grc-conj}} will have cform= folded into form=. I can fix the old one until I get the new version done. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 18:14, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Parameters for selecting forms displayed[edit]

Is there a way to turn off, say, the non-indicative forms for an aorist iterative like φύγεσκον (phúgeskon)?

For that matter, it would be nice to have a way to simply remove the cells for various moods from a table. Say, a parameter |noshow= that takes two letters: then s for subjunctive, o for optative, c for imperative, i for infinitive, n for participle; then a for active, m for middle, p for passive.

I also wish it were possible to specify just active and passive in |form=. And it would make more sense if the parameters were just a, m, and p, and then you'd just choose from those or the combinations am, mp, and ap. It's weird that active and passive have three-letter abbreviations. while active-middle and middle-passive have two letters. — Eru·tuon 21:32, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

(Sorry I didn't see this section before.) There is a parameter indonly= for certain aorists (e.g. ἔδωκα), and this can be extended to iteratives. I can add greater customizability of moods, but I know of no reason to. Changing the code of form= is possible, but I am hesitant to do so given the existing standard. What verb has only active and passive aorist? —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 17:57, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Verbs that are transitive and can be passivized, but don't have a distinct middle meaning: for instance, νῑκάω (nīkáō, win), ἔρδω (érdō, do), πέρθω (pérthō, sack). — Eru·tuon 19:16, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Ah, of course. I will add form=ap. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 19:48, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! And I'm excited for the updates, whenever they come. — Eru·tuon 20:34, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Athematic with stem in -υ-[edit]

ῥῡ́ομαι (rhū́omai) has athematic imperfect and present or perfect forms in addition to thematic present and imperfect: for instance, εἰρύαται (eirúatai), ἔρῡσο (érūso). Cunliffe and LSJ disagree on whether the former is present or perfect. I could encode them using the special form parameter, but it would be nice to have a way to generate them with the template. I think there are other verbs like this, but I can't remember them at the moment. — Eru·tuon 22:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's any other verb that conjugates quite like ἔρυμαι, unless the conjugation is identical to verbs in -νυμι. I suspect the prudent course of action will be to manually write an incomplete table. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 15:38, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
I went with creating tables with tons of different stem forms and manually entering the divergent ones. Not sure if LSJ and Cunliffe give enough forms to manually create an incomplete table or not. — Eru·tuon 16:37, 6 April 2016 (UTC)

Parameter prefix= not working[edit]

@ObsequiousNewt: The prefix= parameter isn't working at προσεῖπον. Even though I've specified prefix=προσ, the module is still throwing the stress onto the initial syllable in the lines where the augment is contracted with the root-initial vowel. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:47, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

@Angr Fixed. ObſequiousNewtGeſpꝛaͤchBeÿtraͤge 17:21, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Uncontracted o-stems?[edit]

@ObsequiousNewt: {{grc-conj|pres-con-o|...}} and {{grc-conj|imperf-con-o|...}} show only the contracted forms, not the uncontracted ones. Is that on purpose? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Smyth just answered my question: "Verbs in -οω never appear in their uncontracted forms in any author." Never mind! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:58, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
However, that being the case, shouldn't we lemmatize the contracted form, e.g. shouldn't the lemma be κοινῶ (koinô) rather than κοινόω (koinóō)?
Dictionaries always (well, except [sometimes] in the case of ζῶ and a few others) cite by uncontracted form. This is of course preferable since otherwise κοινῶ is ambiguous. Smyth says that the verbs always contract; Buck says that ο+ο "regularly contracts" but does mention that uncontracted ο+ε exists. Pharr (§944) says "These verbs [referring to all of them] may be contracted as indicated above, and are regularly so contracted in later classical Greek." He doesn't mention any special treatment of ο-contracts. He does however mention the existence of gen. sg. -οο. ObſequiousNewtGeſpꝛaͤchBeÿtraͤge 21:46, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
I like the idea of lemmatizing the contracted forms, but it is problematic for the reason that ObsequiousNewt states. It would be possible to lemmatize contracted forms if we switched to the infinitive (this is what my St Andrews Attic vocabulary does). With the infinitive, we would have τῑμᾶν (tīmân), ποιεῖν (poieîn), and κοινοῦν (koinoûn). I like the idea because it would show that the contracted forms are the default in the most important dialects (Attic and Koine), but since Wiktionary already has the first-singular lemmatized, it would require a huge amount of work. — Eru·tuon 22:41, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
I really meant only lemmatizing the contracted form in the case of -όω verbs, since the uncontracted forms are (if Smyth is right) purely hypothetical. In the -άω and -έω verbs, the uncontracted forms are attested, so the lemma can remain uncontracted. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Auxiliary verbs in perfect mediopassive subjunctive/optative[edit]

@Erutuon, JohnC5, ObsequiousNewt: The forms of the auxiliary verb in the perfect mediopassive subjunctive and optative now link to the corresponding participle instead of to the verb form itself. For example, at αἰνέω, the 1st singular perfect mediopassive subjunctive ᾐμημένος ὦ is linked as [[ᾐμημένος]] [[ᾐμημένος|ὦ]] instead of as [[ᾐμημένος]] [[ὦ]]. Is that intentional? Is it a good idea? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:10, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

ὄλλυμι etc.[edit]

@Erutuon, JohnC5, ObsequiousNewt: Would it be possible to modify |pres-numi and |imperf-numi to change the ν to λ when the preceding consonant is λ? That would allow us to add the present and imperfect of ὄλλυμι and its compounds. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Clarification on code[edit]

@ObsequiousNewt: I have a number of questions on the code, and I will post them here rather than commenting on the code. What do pstem, ctable, and pctable stand for? — Eru·tuon 20:48, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Third plural perfect mediopassive indicative forms[edit]

{{grc-conj|perf||γεγελᾰσ|form=mp}} generates γεγελᾰ́σᾰται; {{grc-conj-perfect-σ||||γεγέλα|γεγελά|γεγελα|form=mp}} generates γεγελασμένοι εἰσί. Which is right? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:17, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Likewise, there's a discrepancy between {{grc-conj|perf||τεθαπ|form=mp}} and {{grc-conj-perfect-labial||||τέθα|τεθά|τεθα|form=mp}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Pluperfects too. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:25, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Dialect parameter[edit]

The dialect (|dial=) parameter does not work as I would expect it to. |dial=att or |dial=koi should make {{grc-conj}} display (Attic) and (Koine) as the titleapp text, and cause the table to only have contracted forms, because uncontracted forms are never used in Attic or Koine.

For instance, {{grc-conj|pres-con-a|form=mid|θε|dial=att}} displays the following:

Eru·tuon 18:54, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect Aorist Ιnfinitive of κωλύω[edit]

The aorist active infinitive of κωλύω (kōlúō) should have a circumflex accent over the 2nd syllable in the stem κωλῦσαι, rather than the spurious form listed with an accute accent over the first syllable (*κώλῡσαι). {{grc-conj-aorist-1|ἐκώλῡσ|ἐκωλύσ|ἐκωλῡσ|κωλύσ|κωλῡσ|κώλῡσ|ἐκωλύθ|ἐκωλῡθ|κωλῡθ|κωλύθ|PC2S=κωλύθητῐ}}

  • Fixed; thanks! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Epic first-person plural middle ending[edit]

When |dial=epi is set, the first-person plural middle ending (all tenses except perfect) shows up as "με(σ)θᾰ(σ)θᾰ" instead of "με(σ)θᾰ", and the link doesn't behave as desired. For example, at ἔδω, the first-person plural middle active indicative displays as "ἐδόμε(σ)θᾰ(σ)θᾰ" and links thus: [[ἐδόμε(σ)θαθα|ἐδόμε(σ)θᾰ]]([[ἐδόμε(σ)θασθα|σ]])[[ἐδόμε(σ)θαθα|θᾰ]]. Instead, it should display as "ἐδόμε(σ)θᾰ" and link as [[ἐδόμεθα|ἐδόμε]]([[ἐδόμεσθα|σ]])[[ἐδόμεθα|θᾰ]]. Can anyone fix this? It seems to be happening in the "-- Epic forms (not in Buck)" section of the main Module:grc-conj page (not the /data subpage, surprisingly enough), but I don't understand Lua so I can't fix it myself. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:52, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

@Angr: Fixed. The problem was in the linking function: Module:grc-accent was outputting a form with combining diacritics in ἐδόμε(σ)θᾰ (alpha + combining breve), while the search-and-replace function to find the stem was using the composed form of , so it never found the stem and just added -σθᾰ and -θᾰ to the "stem" ἐδόμε(σ)θᾰ. Simple but took me a while to figure out because the combined and uncombined letters look identical. — Eru·tuon 18:54, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
Glad you found it! It's odd, because on ordinary pages, even if you type alpha + combining breve in the edit box, it's automatically converted to precomposed alpha-breve. But apparently that isn't true within module code. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:03, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Middle/Passive perfect infinitives are wrong throughout[edit]

Perfect infinitives for middle/passive should have an acute accent on the penultimate syllable, yet the inflection templates create an acute in antepenultima position. AFAICT, the bug bites for every verb.

Example: For the verb φέρω, the template produces ἐνήνεχθαι but the correct form is ἐνηνέχθαι.

27.34.20.142 22:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for calling my attention to this. — Eru·tuon 22:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you very much for this extremely fast reaction (also for not forgetting that some infinitives need a circumflex)
27.34.104.53 17:33, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Imperativus praesentis activi persona tertia pluralis[edit]

Why there isn't this -έτωσαν form, but only -όντων? Sorry, I can't add it by myself. Дитмар (talk) 15:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Does this module generate pages of each forms of the words? And if not, can someone make it to do so?[edit]

To make them one by one is too bothersome. I'd appreciate if you could meliorate.--Yoshiciv (talk) 08:25, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

@Yoshiciv: Entries have to be created by editors. But a module can be used to generate the initial content. I started a module to more easily create entries (Module:User:Erutuon/grc), but it isn't finished and doesn't create inflected form entries, only main entries. (There's also a script to create pages for inflected forms (WT:ACCEL), which would be even more useful, but Ancient Greek is not supported yet.) — Eru·tuon 10:44, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much for the information!--Yoshiciv (talk) 12:16, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

{{grc-conj|fut-ln|ἀγγελ|ἀγγελθ|dial=att}}, deux conjuguaisons non contractées[edit]

Bonjour,
Je ne suis pas un expert du grec mais, lorsque j’utilise le modèle {{grc-conj|fut-ln|ἀγγελ|ἀγγελθ|dial=att}}, j’obtiens deux conjuguaisons toutes deux indiquées non contractées :


, alors que la deuxième, ἀγγελῶ, me semble au contraire contractée. N’est-ce pas une coquille ?
Bon courage ! :-) 2A01:CB00:796:3C00:B5F1:97F4:6414:E50A 18:22, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
P.-S. : Je pense que ce problème est similaire à celui signalé par Eru·tuon le 2 Mars 2017 : Module_talk:grc-conj#Dialect_parameter 2A01:CB00:796:3C00:B5F1:97F4:6414:E50A 19:01, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, this is an error. I can look into fixing it. — Eru·tuon 00:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

No contraction of ε + η or ε + ῃ in verbs with monosyllabic stems[edit]

Regarding ε-contracted verbs, Smyth § 397 only mentions that ε + ο and ε + ω aren't contracted and the module currently reflects that, but @Sarri.greek alerted me to the fact that ε + η and ε + aren't contracted either. On Greek Wikisource, of several pairs of contracted and uncontracted forms (for instance, ῥῇ and ῥέῃ, δῆται and δέηται) that I searched for, only the uncontracted version can be found. So Smyth seems to have forgotten to mention that ε + η and ε + aren't contracted, or maybe he mentions it somewhere else. Anyway, I think I will try to change the behavior of the pres-con-e-mono conjugation type to reflect this, though it would be nice to get confirmation. — Eru·tuon 23:31, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you @Erutuon. Smyth at 397 comments on the indicative only. General rule is: ε+ε=ει, ε+ει=ει. The only contracted outcome can be ει (some notes here). Apart from pres.subjunctive, also important is the stress at Imperfect e.g. πνέω#Inflection ἔπνεες>ἔπνεις). Also at 2sing.imperative of compounds. And δέω=tie, δέω=need and δέομαι: the 'tie' sense is the one with all-contracted. sarri.greek (talk) 06:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
@Erutuon! You are great, thanks. sarri.greek (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Contracted forms labeled uncontracted[edit]

@Erutuon: {{grc-conj|imperf-con-e|...|dial=epi}} provides both contracted and uncontracted forms, but both sets are labeled "uncontracted". See ὠθέω for an example: the fourth Imperfect table is titled "Imperfect: ὤθευν, ὠθεύμην (Uncontracted)", but ὤθευν and ὠθεύμην (and all the rest of the forms in the table) are actually contracted. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:36, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: Yeah, this general type of problem is noted at Module:grc-conj/documentation. I don't know when I will manage to fix it. — Eru·tuon 21:38, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Manually specified mediopassive perfect participle[edit]

@Erutuon: at κορύσσω (korússō) it is necessary to manually specify the mediopassive perfect participle κεκορυθμένος (kekoruthménos) because the usual -θμ- > -σμ- rule doesn't apply. However, the periphrastic subjunctive and optative forms, which are built on this participle, still show the automatically generated *κεκορυσμένος (*kekorusménos). Would it be possible to get them to use the manually specified participle wherever one is given? Thanks! —Mahāgaja · talk 10:39, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

@Mahagaja: Even if it's impossible, it needs to be done. Currently the module is regenerating the perfect passive participle for each perfect passive periphrasis. (See Mένος *ὦ in Module:grc-conj/data, where M stands for the perfect passive stem plus μ; not sure what * means.) It would also be great to generate the feminine and neuter forms of participles from the masculine rather than separately (see Mένη and Mένον in Module:grc-conj/data) so that only the masculine has to be supplied in κορύσσω (korússō). I already have code that can do that in Module:User:Erutuon/grc (get_participle_information). — Eru·tuon 17:40, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Fixed, I think, though in a kludgy way. — Eru·tuon 20:33, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
@Erutuon: Thanks, but though it's displayed correctly, the links are wrong. In the participle lines, each participle form links to the infinitive rather than to itself, and in the subjunctive/optative lines, they link to the third-person plural indicative. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:38, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Wow, that's bizarre. The words in the periphrases are also linking to the wrong entries: κεκορυθμένος and link to κεκορύθαται (the word at the end of the previous row), and κεκορυθμένος and εἴην link to κεκορύθαταιν (apparently formed from κεκορύθαται + ν, where ν comes from ὦσῐ(ν) at the end of the previous row). The linking function (which also retrieves the forms and adds stems to the endings) is very convoluted and has a lot of variables that are not erased between runs, so state bleeds over between the linking of different forms. — Eru·tuon 00:01, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
@Erutuon: There's some weird stuff going on at τεύχω now too, which has automatically generated perfect passive participles, not manually specified ones. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Whoops, fixed that, but I'm getting so tired of fixing one bug and having another pop up because the module is so confusingly structured. I need to start a complete rewrite. — Eru·tuon 17:42, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
@Erutuon: Not completely fixed, I'm afraid. The feminine and neuter forms of the participle at τεύχω are missing the first four letters. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:17, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Ahh, I should have noticed that. Tried again. (Now some of the forms are still linked to the wrong entries, but different wrong entries. Huh.) — Eru·tuon 18:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)